That time I interviewed SHIRLEY PHELPS-ROPER
Oh, for Chrissakes...
When it comes to the Bible and sex, Shirley Phelps-Roper has an answer for everything — except for intersexuals.
And she's got a nutty 9/11 theory.
When it comes to the Bible and sex, Shirley Phelps-Roper has an answer for everything — except for intersexuals.
And she's got a nutty 9/11 theory.
By DANIEL KUSNER
Whenever Shirley Phelps-Roper appears on TV, I can't take my eyes off her.
She's as fierce as a pack of killer drag queens.
While spewing her hatred for "fags" and "doomed America," Shirley practically vibrates ... like a Hollywood producer who's off her Lithium and just snorted two rails of cocaine.
Shirley, of course, is the garrulous daughter of Fred Phelps — pastor and leader of the Westboro Baptist Church in Topeka, Kan.
While the Phelps family has made its way into many news headlines, Fred will be immortalized for picketing the funeral of Matthew Shepard while Westboro followers held signs with slogans like "Matthew Shepard Rots in Hell."
Whenever Shirley Phelps-Roper appears on TV, I can't take my eyes off her.
She's as fierce as a pack of killer drag queens.
While spewing her hatred for "fags" and "doomed America," Shirley practically vibrates ... like a Hollywood producer who's off her Lithium and just snorted two rails of cocaine.
Shirley, of course, is the garrulous daughter of Fred Phelps — pastor and leader of the Westboro Baptist Church in Topeka, Kan.
While the Phelps family has made its way into many news headlines, Fred will be immortalized for picketing the funeral of Matthew Shepard while Westboro followers held signs with slogans like "Matthew Shepard Rots in Hell."
PASTOR-PATRIARCH: Fred Phelps has aged out of the 'Westboro Spokesman' role.
How Wyoming citizens peacefully thwarted Phelps' protest became the dramatic epiphany for "The Laramie Project."
Fred is now in his late 70s.
And after viewing "The Most Hated Family in America," Louis Theroux's recent BBC documentary, it's safe to assume that Fred's such a mean-tempered codger that he now shies away from media requests.
Shirley currently serves as the lightning rod for Westboro Baptist.
Whenever Howard Stern calls, she's more than happy to show up.
Shirley can out-scream Sean Hannity or any one else at FOX News.
And last week, Shirley made her second appearance on "The Tyra Banks Show."
Fred is now in his late 70s.
And after viewing "The Most Hated Family in America," Louis Theroux's recent BBC documentary, it's safe to assume that Fred's such a mean-tempered codger that he now shies away from media requests.
Shirley currently serves as the lightning rod for Westboro Baptist.
Whenever Howard Stern calls, she's more than happy to show up.
Shirley can out-scream Sean Hannity or any one else at FOX News.
And last week, Shirley made her second appearance on "The Tyra Banks Show."
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And after a heated exchange — with Westboro calling Tyra a "fag enabler" — the talkshow host promised viewers that the Phelps family would never make another appearance on her show.
Overflowing with intense conviction, Shirley possesses a fascinating charisma.
So does Charles Manson.
While Shirley may be an overzealous homophobe, she's not stupid. And she's never at a loss for words.
Overflowing with intense conviction, Shirley possesses a fascinating charisma.
So does Charles Manson.
While Shirley may be an overzealous homophobe, she's not stupid. And she's never at a loss for words.
'MIDDLESEX' INSPIRATION
Ever since I read Jeffrey Eugenides' Pulitzer-winning novel "Middlesex" — the coming-of-age tale about a 14-year-old girl who discovers she also has a penis and testicles — I've had a question for Bible thumpers: What would Jesus say about intersexuals?
(By the way, the word "hermaphrodite" is considered a disparaging term.)
(By the way, the word "hermaphrodite" is considered a disparaging term.)
HERMES + APHRODITE Hermaphroditos, left, "Middlesex."
Intersex beings have existed long before Christianity.
And evangelicals can tirelessly preach against same-sex love.
But aren't intersexuals beautiful creatures supposedly created by God?
So, I wondered ... According to the Bible, which gender are intersexuals allowed to hook up with?
If the answer is: "other intersexuals," would that mean that the same genitalia could never touch?
And what if the genitals did touch? What if the genitals became aroused?
I've been dying to field these curveball questions to a scriptural know-it-all.
And at the top of my Evangelical Want List was Shirley Phelps-Roper ... who used to scare the hell out of me.
After watching the BBC documentary, I searched for a Westboro Baptist publicity contact on GodHatesFags.com.
While conducting this search, I also came across a couple of fascinating tidbits about the Phelps family.
Before he was disbarred in 1977, Fred Phelps was a lawyer. Apparently, Fred has a background as a civil rights advocate.
Out of the 13 Phelps children, 11 hold law degrees — including Shirley.
A press release contained a phone number for Westboro Baptist.
I dialed.
And Shirley answered the phone. (I think she was standing in her kitchen....)
And evangelicals can tirelessly preach against same-sex love.
But aren't intersexuals beautiful creatures supposedly created by God?
So, I wondered ... According to the Bible, which gender are intersexuals allowed to hook up with?
If the answer is: "other intersexuals," would that mean that the same genitalia could never touch?
And what if the genitals did touch? What if the genitals became aroused?
I've been dying to field these curveball questions to a scriptural know-it-all.
And at the top of my Evangelical Want List was Shirley Phelps-Roper ... who used to scare the hell out of me.
After watching the BBC documentary, I searched for a Westboro Baptist publicity contact on GodHatesFags.com.
While conducting this search, I also came across a couple of fascinating tidbits about the Phelps family.
Before he was disbarred in 1977, Fred Phelps was a lawyer. Apparently, Fred has a background as a civil rights advocate.
Out of the 13 Phelps children, 11 hold law degrees — including Shirley.
A press release contained a phone number for Westboro Baptist.
I dialed.
And Shirley answered the phone. (I think she was standing in her kitchen....)
Shirley Phelps-Roper, left, talks with her daughter, Megan Phelps-Roper, (Jennifer Hack/Kansas City Star/Tribune News Service.)
DECONSTRUCTING SHIRLE
While listening to Shirley, one must exercise extreme patience.
She's a provocateur who can talk endlessly.
If you manage to avoid yelling at her, Shirley's completely capable of having a normal conversation.
She's given birth to 11 children. And during our interview — which lasted more than 90 minutes — Shirley's mothering instinct would often kick in.
I can't count how many times she called me "hon" or corrected me with tenderness.
We even laughed together.
While speaking with Shirley, two fabulous images crossed my mind: Piper Laurie's Oscar-nominated performance from "Carrie;" and those manipulative and shrilly finger-pointing girls from Arthur Miller's "The Crucible."
Also, Shirley's speech pattern is often punctuated by yelling out a word or phrase in the middle of a sentence.
Sometimes the word being highlighted is of no importance.
Below are two examples:
• "This nation is on a fast TRACK! shortly to its destruction."
• "The Pharisees and the Sadducees were coming to the Lord Jesus Christ with the ISSUE! that there is no resurrection."
It's as if Shirley shouts to jolt listeners awake. And with her thick Kansas accent, she resembles a nasally voiced character whom Amy Sedaris would have invented.
She's a provocateur who can talk endlessly.
If you manage to avoid yelling at her, Shirley's completely capable of having a normal conversation.
She's given birth to 11 children. And during our interview — which lasted more than 90 minutes — Shirley's mothering instinct would often kick in.
I can't count how many times she called me "hon" or corrected me with tenderness.
We even laughed together.
While speaking with Shirley, two fabulous images crossed my mind: Piper Laurie's Oscar-nominated performance from "Carrie;" and those manipulative and shrilly finger-pointing girls from Arthur Miller's "The Crucible."
Also, Shirley's speech pattern is often punctuated by yelling out a word or phrase in the middle of a sentence.
Sometimes the word being highlighted is of no importance.
Below are two examples:
• "This nation is on a fast TRACK! shortly to its destruction."
• "The Pharisees and the Sadducees were coming to the Lord Jesus Christ with the ISSUE! that there is no resurrection."
It's as if Shirley shouts to jolt listeners awake. And with her thick Kansas accent, she resembles a nasally voiced character whom Amy Sedaris would have invented.
LUST-FREE EUNUCHS FOR JESUS
It was almost impossible to get Shirley to offer a firm answer about Bible-sanctioned relationships for intersexuals. Which was my first question.
But after 80 minutes of patiently trying coax an answer, I finally gave up.
Shirley admitted that she's been asked about instersexuals before. But she's quite shrewd in the employing the interview methods of "dodge" and "bridge."
She first dodged the question with, "The answer is easy. You ask that question like having sex is an axiomatic matter of fact. That people need to be engaged in sexual activity."
She says the answer is reported in the gospel passage: "Some men are eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake."
She also tried to say the answer of determining gender is always an easy one "that the chromosomes never lie."
But Shirley's wrong.
There are actually quite a few possible chromosome combinations other than XX (female) and XY (male).
There's Turner syndrome, XO; Triple X syndrome, XXX; Klinefelter syndrome, XXY, XYY: Syndrome XYY and others.
Before I could get Shirley to acknowledge her lack of chromosomal knowledge, she leapt to a bridge with a long-winded anecdote about her children never lusting or thirsting for sex or romance.
But we'll get back to the topic of intersexuality and Jesus later on...
But after 80 minutes of patiently trying coax an answer, I finally gave up.
Shirley admitted that she's been asked about instersexuals before. But she's quite shrewd in the employing the interview methods of "dodge" and "bridge."
She first dodged the question with, "The answer is easy. You ask that question like having sex is an axiomatic matter of fact. That people need to be engaged in sexual activity."
She says the answer is reported in the gospel passage: "Some men are eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake."
She also tried to say the answer of determining gender is always an easy one "that the chromosomes never lie."
But Shirley's wrong.
There are actually quite a few possible chromosome combinations other than XX (female) and XY (male).
There's Turner syndrome, XO; Triple X syndrome, XXX; Klinefelter syndrome, XXY, XYY: Syndrome XYY and others.
Before I could get Shirley to acknowledge her lack of chromosomal knowledge, she leapt to a bridge with a long-winded anecdote about her children never lusting or thirsting for sex or romance.
But we'll get back to the topic of intersexuality and Jesus later on...
POO OBSESSED: Shirley Phelps-Roper, left, criticizes U.K. journalist Louis Theroux, saying "No, YOU'VE! got fornication on the brain!" (says the woman who publicly demonstrates with signs that read "Fags Eat Poop.")
SHIRLEY IS UNCUT ... BUT DON'T CALL HER A FEMINIST
Somewhere on YouTube, there's a clip of Shirley explaining her super-long hairdo.
"The purpose of the long hair... It's not long. It's 'uncut.' 'Long' isn't the description. There is a distinction, you know," Shirley explains. "A lot of women who wear their hair long but they cut it."
Shirley doesn't cut her hair because (eye-roll) the "air is alive with clouds of angles."
"We don't cut our hair because we DEMONSTRATE! to everyone looking that you are to be in subjection to the Lord Your God. That your husband — if you have one — is the head of that household," she says.
"It means NOT! that I could not stand in a pulpit and run my mouth. I could do that, but I would not DARE! do that because the standard that is set by your God is NO! WOMEN! PREACHERS!"
If that's the case, why the hyphenated name Phelps-Roper?
Shirley says she got married on a Friday.
By the next Monday, her office had already affixed the hyphen to her name. So did a marriage announcement in her local newspaper.
"On the other hand, we knew this name Phelps was a legacy. It was for our children's sake that my husband and I did that," she explains. "You hear the name Phelps today and it means something. You hear Phelps, and you think, 'God Hates Fags.' You think, 'America is Doomed.'"
It's been said that not completely taking the husband's name is the first negotiation of the ball-busting wife.
Doesn't Shirley believe some people would think it's a rather feminist and empowering decision to keep her maiden name? Like Hillary Rodham Clinton?
"I don't care what they think," she says. "They look at me and they see my manner of life. They know I'm not a feminist. I'm a servant of the living God. There's power in that!"
"The purpose of the long hair... It's not long. It's 'uncut.' 'Long' isn't the description. There is a distinction, you know," Shirley explains. "A lot of women who wear their hair long but they cut it."
Shirley doesn't cut her hair because (eye-roll) the "air is alive with clouds of angles."
"We don't cut our hair because we DEMONSTRATE! to everyone looking that you are to be in subjection to the Lord Your God. That your husband — if you have one — is the head of that household," she says.
"It means NOT! that I could not stand in a pulpit and run my mouth. I could do that, but I would not DARE! do that because the standard that is set by your God is NO! WOMEN! PREACHERS!"
If that's the case, why the hyphenated name Phelps-Roper?
Shirley says she got married on a Friday.
By the next Monday, her office had already affixed the hyphen to her name. So did a marriage announcement in her local newspaper.
"On the other hand, we knew this name Phelps was a legacy. It was for our children's sake that my husband and I did that," she explains. "You hear the name Phelps today and it means something. You hear Phelps, and you think, 'God Hates Fags.' You think, 'America is Doomed.'"
It's been said that not completely taking the husband's name is the first negotiation of the ball-busting wife.
Doesn't Shirley believe some people would think it's a rather feminist and empowering decision to keep her maiden name? Like Hillary Rodham Clinton?
"I don't care what they think," she says. "They look at me and they see my manner of life. They know I'm not a feminist. I'm a servant of the living God. There's power in that!"
SLAVE TO BIBLE.COM
Since Fred Phelps reportedly has a background as a civil rights advocate, does Shirley ever trip over passages in the Bible that discuss slave ownership?
"You don't come across any passages about slave ownership," she says.
None?
"ZERO! It's a fraud," she says.
Then Shirley rolled out a meticulous explanation about a Law of Moses — how some debtors willfully entering into "bondsman" agreements. And that every seventh year — the Year of Jubilee — the debtors were set free. That is, if they wanted to be freed. Some voluntarily accepted servitude.
During our conversation, Shirley had consulted a Bible website to track down a gorgeous passage — Galatians 3:28 — about the soul having no gender.
Taking her cue, I looked up the word "slave" on BibleGateway.com. And 164 results popped up. I started reading Genesis: 20:17.
"What are you reading?" Shirley demanded. "Well, you get off that website and go to a PROPER online source! Just go to Bible.com."
I follow her orders, but the same 164 results emerge.
"That word 'slave' is INTERPOLATED! Do you understand?" she asks.
"People try to use the Bible to justify slavery. Well, they didn't use the bible PROPERLY! just like they use the Bible to justify all of their filthy deeds," she continues. "But the scriptures do not conflict. They do not contradict one another. They work perfectly in synch together — if you bother to read it with distinction!"
Oh, for Chrissakes...
"You don't come across any passages about slave ownership," she says.
None?
"ZERO! It's a fraud," she says.
Then Shirley rolled out a meticulous explanation about a Law of Moses — how some debtors willfully entering into "bondsman" agreements. And that every seventh year — the Year of Jubilee — the debtors were set free. That is, if they wanted to be freed. Some voluntarily accepted servitude.
During our conversation, Shirley had consulted a Bible website to track down a gorgeous passage — Galatians 3:28 — about the soul having no gender.
Taking her cue, I looked up the word "slave" on BibleGateway.com. And 164 results popped up. I started reading Genesis: 20:17.
"What are you reading?" Shirley demanded. "Well, you get off that website and go to a PROPER online source! Just go to Bible.com."
I follow her orders, but the same 164 results emerge.
"That word 'slave' is INTERPOLATED! Do you understand?" she asks.
"People try to use the Bible to justify slavery. Well, they didn't use the bible PROPERLY! just like they use the Bible to justify all of their filthy deeds," she continues. "But the scriptures do not conflict. They do not contradict one another. They work perfectly in synch together — if you bother to read it with distinction!"
Oh, for Chrissakes...
Shirley Phelps-Roper holds up signs as she joins fellow members of the Westboro Baptist Church as they protest across the street from Ground Zero July 4, 2004 in New York City. (Photo by Monika Graff/Getty Images)
THINGS TURN DESPICABLY SAD ...
When it comes to toying with Shirley asking questions and hearing contradictory answers, it's not all fun 'n' games.
This woman pickets funerals. Funerals of soldiers — many barely in their 20s, who have sacrificed their lives in a shameful war.
In the BBC documentary, a 23-year-old man was killed while trying to dismantle an improvised explosive device. Outside his funeral, the Westboro Baptist picketers were standing at a nearby corner.
A confused mourner turned the corner to get to the church.
Shirley looked into the car's open window and told the passenger that the dead soldier was going to burn in hell. The passenger was the soldier's sister.
How heartless can she be?
Last week, Westboro Baptist promised to picket the funerals of the 32 victims of the Virginia Tech massacre.
This woman pickets funerals. Funerals of soldiers — many barely in their 20s, who have sacrificed their lives in a shameful war.
In the BBC documentary, a 23-year-old man was killed while trying to dismantle an improvised explosive device. Outside his funeral, the Westboro Baptist picketers were standing at a nearby corner.
A confused mourner turned the corner to get to the church.
Shirley looked into the car's open window and told the passenger that the dead soldier was going to burn in hell. The passenger was the soldier's sister.
How heartless can she be?
Last week, Westboro Baptist promised to picket the funerals of the 32 victims of the Virginia Tech massacre.
SHIRLEY'S CONSPIRACY THEORY ABOUT BIG D AND 9/11
Okay, y'all. This part is sick-and-twisted (but kinda fascinating).
Over the years, Westboro Baptist has picketed Dallas many times.
But for Shirley, one memory about Big D particularly stands out.
On Sept. 8, 2001, Shirley and her crew stood in front of Dallas' Fairmont Hotel protesting a convention for the National Lesbian and Gay Journalists Association.
"It was some fag journalist convention. I don't have the program in front of me. They usually call it 'purple this' or 'lavender that.' But we flew to Dallas on American Airlines." Shirley remembers. "While we were there, we noticed that American Airlines was sponsoring this fag thing because they would come out with their little bags and stuff. And the bags had all the sponsors' logos."
The NLGJA convention was a weekend event.
The following Tuesday was 9/11.
"And that morning, when they were showing an American Airline plane flying into the World Trade Center, I thought, 'How awesome is this?'"
The inflection of Shirley's voice actually registered a wicked satisfaction on the strange recollection.
But isn't this all too ridiculous?
Isn't Shirley just following in Marilyn Manson's boogieman stilettos?
To call the Phelps clan a "cult" grants their rinky-dink congregation too much legitimacy.
To even let them inspire anger would prove that Westboro has "gotten our goat."
And when Shirley makes one of her super-freaky prophesies, it's like she's telling a ghost story.
That's what energizes her oddball inflection.
Here's another freaky conspiracy: According to Wikipedia, some nutty blogger suggests that the deplorable North American Man Boy Love Association is funding Westboro Baptist. That NAMBLA is trying to "draw unfavorable attention toward Christians as a whole, make [them] afraid to speak about morality, and make [them] all seem like idiots."
Over the years, Westboro Baptist has picketed Dallas many times.
But for Shirley, one memory about Big D particularly stands out.
On Sept. 8, 2001, Shirley and her crew stood in front of Dallas' Fairmont Hotel protesting a convention for the National Lesbian and Gay Journalists Association.
"It was some fag journalist convention. I don't have the program in front of me. They usually call it 'purple this' or 'lavender that.' But we flew to Dallas on American Airlines." Shirley remembers. "While we were there, we noticed that American Airlines was sponsoring this fag thing because they would come out with their little bags and stuff. And the bags had all the sponsors' logos."
The NLGJA convention was a weekend event.
The following Tuesday was 9/11.
"And that morning, when they were showing an American Airline plane flying into the World Trade Center, I thought, 'How awesome is this?'"
The inflection of Shirley's voice actually registered a wicked satisfaction on the strange recollection.
But isn't this all too ridiculous?
Isn't Shirley just following in Marilyn Manson's boogieman stilettos?
To call the Phelps clan a "cult" grants their rinky-dink congregation too much legitimacy.
To even let them inspire anger would prove that Westboro has "gotten our goat."
And when Shirley makes one of her super-freaky prophesies, it's like she's telling a ghost story.
That's what energizes her oddball inflection.
Here's another freaky conspiracy: According to Wikipedia, some nutty blogger suggests that the deplorable North American Man Boy Love Association is funding Westboro Baptist. That NAMBLA is trying to "draw unfavorable attention toward Christians as a whole, make [them] afraid to speak about morality, and make [them] all seem like idiots."
THE GENITALS Q&A
After more than an hour talking with Shirley, I was exhausted. So I tried to bring her back to the topic of intersexuals.
"I'm not going to answer that question," she says.
KUSNER: Is the question too inappropriate for Shirley?
SHIRLEY: "Paul said, 'Foolish and unlearned questions avoid knowing what they do.' Your question isn't going anywhere. You don't have any person on the ground who sincerely wants to know what God thinks about what they should do. If you had such a person, then I'd be happy to talk to them. But let me hear the person the sound of the person's voice, the sincerity of their question.
Could the answer be a permissive one? You know, Christ-like. Or a "God is love" answer?
You think that's Christ-like?
Couldn't you just boil it all down to "love thy neighbor?"
Yeah, he said that. But show us what it means. Don't play fast and loose with these terms. "Love thy neighbor" means, you warn your neighbor that his sin is taking him to hell. And if you don't do that, you hate your neighbor in your heart.
Is the answer that intersexuals are prohibited from being involved in any physical romance?
I don't know the person. I don't know the details.
If it were a man or a woman, the answer is easy. So this is a complicated question, right?
You're presenting me with a scenario that may or may not have any basis for reality.
Would they have to hook up with someone exactly like them? And then, whatever they do, don't let the same genitals touch or arouse each other?
You're wrapped around that nasty, little what-are-we-going-to-do-with-our-tiny-insignificant...
Are God-made genitals nasty?
It's insignificant. All of that maudlin "sowing to the flesh" stuff? Just forget that.
But Shirley. This is my big question. One that I'd hoped you'd unearth the divine answer.
Every person is created by God. But some people are created as vessels of wrath, fitted to destruction. The only purpose for their existence is for their destruction. Don't say "God's creatures." Like this is some big gushy, squishy thing here. He specifically created them to DESTROY THEM! To send them to hell. Romans: 9 lays this out very well. It talks about his hatred and so forth.
So they're damned from the get-go?
Exactly! Like Jacob and Esau: "Before the boys were yet born, having done neither good nor evil." That's the purpose of God. It's God's purpose, you understand?
What if these creatures are the new Adam and Eve?
That doesn't make any sense.
Aren't you predicting that Armageddon is just around the corner? What if intersexuals are the new true beings?
All you're saying is, 'Hurry up! Sin, quick!' I'm telling you, you're going to see two things before your very eyes — very soon. You're going to see the destruction of America. And the return of Lord Jesus Christ through those clouds as promised to execute judgment — fiery judgment. Stay tuned.
